Interview date: 22.11.2008
Non Credo are an American outfit who have put out just three albums in their twenty-year history. But what albums! RockLine sat down with both masterminds of this avant-garde madness, Joe Berardi and Kira Vollman.
RockLine: Impropera is your latest album. How happy are you with it?
Kira Vollman: I’m very happy. We made what we wanted to make. When we finished, we asked ourselves: “Who the hell is going to listen to this?”
Joe Berardi: We’re really happy with how it turned out. It’s exactly how we pictured the album. We had to record Impropera, we had to get it out of our systems. We’d been playing the basic music live for a long time, so it got to evolve. It all came out of improvisation, and our goal was to catch that spontaneity in the controlled atmosphere of the studio. I think we pulled it off. Even though we were happy with the results, we knew listeners might struggle with the music. We were aware that it’s harder to get into than the previous two. Sure, people who listen to our music don’t expect easy pop songs, but I think we’ve probably made music that’s too difficult even for some of them. Loads of reviews have said the music sounds totally its own thing, one of a kind, outside every classification, even avant-garde and experimental traditions. If you’re hearing the album for the first time, that can be a problem. It can feel like you’ve got nothing to hold on to. Listening to the album without preconceptions is the best way in.
RockLine: Do you feel the album is quite different from its predecessors?
KV: In one way yes, in another no. There are a few tracks on the album that could’ve been on the other albums and vice versa. But since we presented Impropera as an opera (as opposed to the usual collection of songs), it was bound to be different. We made the album with the idea that it would be an opera, and that shaped the music too.
JB: I think the album is quite different. Before, we wrote more standard songs, only occasionally adding more atmospheric parts. Like we said, Impropera is based on improvisation and it’s more open. It also seems like with Impropera we wanted to make an album we could actually play live, since we didn’t record anything extra, didn’t add instruments and sounds. When we arrange stuff, there are loads of options and we can pick whatever we like. We’re always adding something to make the arrangements better. That’s also why it takes us so long to finish anything! But with Impropera we only used what we play live – me on keyboards, Kira on clarinet, vocals and percussion. It was a completely different approach, and the end result reflects that.
RockLine: Were the vocals planned before you went into the studio, or are they sometimes (or always) improvised?
KV: Not all the vocal parts are planned. The songs with lyrics grew out of improvisations and took shape the way you hear them on the album, but even those can be played completely differently live. The experimental vocal parts are totally improvised, both on the album and live. They’re always different, but with a similar atmosphere. Then there are a few songs that were completely improvised (both music and vocals) in the studio, while recording. Those are “Prima Punta” and “Epilogue”. We’ve never played those live. Some of the instruments were improvised in the studio too.
Impropera started out as a live show with the concept of playing an improvised opera live. Over time things became more set. Joe would come up with sounds and samples and patterns would emerge. We liked some of the stuff so much that we kept it instead of playing it differently every time. The more we played, the more familiar and learned certain things became. At that point we told ourselves we had to record Impropera… before it got too familiar. We wanted to record it before it became too composed and before we knew exactly what each of us had to do. Every live show is different. The arrangements are always different, depending on how much time we have and our mood. We know which samples go with what, so certain things depend on each other. I roughly know what style Joe will play in, but I can’t pin down exactly what he’ll play.
JB: One funny thing is that “Prima Punta” and “Epilogue” sound the most composed on the album, but they’re actually pure improvisation, played for the first time in the studio.
RockLine: What does the name Impropera mean? Improvised opera, improper opera, both, or something else?
KV: Everything you said. Impropera is an improvised and improper opera and then some! Lots of wonderful words start with “imp”… don’t you think?
JB: Impossible!
RockLine: Do the lyrics on Impropera have a concept?
KV: I like structure. I like stories. I like cohesion, even when it comes to improvisation. Our improvisations always have a composition lurking in the background. I think at the start I improvise the lyrics and use them to look for a direction and a story. In the end I can tie the individual little stories into a bigger one. Well, at least I try. I can explain Impropera in a way that makes sense, as a concept. I don’t like telling people my own interpretations, because it’s so interesting to read how others interpret my lyrics.
But let me explain a bit anyway:
I think of Impropera as a film. The opera begins somewhere near the end of the story, where our anti-hero is at rock bottom. He’s homeless, incapable of social interaction, and unable to do the one simple task that would save him. His story would draw sympathy out of people, but he doesn’t tell it, and his story is a lie. The rest of the lyrics deal with the true story. They talk about his crimes, his delusions and his denial. Near the end of the opera we hear “Sleeping Beauty”. I got the inspiration for that text from a newspaper article I read many years ago and never forgot. It was about a woman who was in a hospital or a sanatorium. She’d been in a coma for 10 years, and then the staff suddenly noticed her belly was growing. They found out she was pregnant. Her parents wanted her to carry the child to term, so that at least some part of her would remain, since she’d practically already “gone”. I tell the story from the point of view of the woman in the coma. Our anti-hero got her pregnant while he was working there. She’s carrying a child who has the same mental illness as its father, and her parents don’t realize it and want to keep the baby. Our anti-hero vanishes into the depths of his downfall and he’s no longer just a crazy sociopath, but physically damaged too because of his own actions. That’s how we see him at the start of the opera. It’s a happy story, the kind that warms your heart.
RockLine: Why did you decide not to have drums on the album?
KV: I don’t play drums.
JB: Ha! So does that mean that if she did play them, they’d be on the album? We left a lot of things off Impropera. Like we mentioned, we wanted to make a kind of document of our live shows, where we only use vocals, clarinets and keyboards. But there are actually plenty of drums on Impropera, they’re just samples played on the keyboards, which means the sound and feel are completely different. Rhythms and patterns can be slowed down or sped up, you can chop them up and pull them out of their original context. For example, the military drums on Vienna Fingers are a sample from another song we haven’t released yet. That happens a lot on the album. So we didn’t really get rid of the drums at all!
Rockline: Joe, do you think that because you play drums in other bands, it was easier for you to decide to drop them on Impropera?
JB: No, I don’t think it has anything to do with it. In Non Credo I have total freedom, so I can do things on the drums that other bands won’t let me do. But it’s true that my drumming in Non Credo is always subordinate to the song. It’s not about showing off my chops, and since we wanted to carry out a specific idea with Impropera, it wasn’t hard to leave the drums out. I was just as happy to use samples of my drumming and manipulate them on the keyboards.
RockLine: Are you working on any new music?
KV: Always, but we’re both very slow at getting to the point where we can release anything. We’ve started writing songs for a new Non Credo album, which is coming together very slowly. We’re also working on a covers album. That one’s moving slowly too. I’m trying to record a solo album myself, but I always run out of time.
JB: The next thing we’ll release is the covers album, since it’s closest to being done. Expect an eclectic, schizophrenic collection of songs. I’d say our next album of original material will be closer to the first two albums. We’d like to go back to more standard songs, as opposed to the long improvisations on Impropera. But Impropera Volume 2 might happen down the road.
In Sweden some guy wants to put out a Non Credo tribute album. Crazy, right!? Ha ha. He’s already recorded a few songs himself, and we’re trying to help him find musicians who’d like to play our covers. It’s really interesting and fascinating to hear how people approach our music. I think the project will be fun and I hope it comes out next year.
RockLine: This is one of my standard questions. What does the creative process look like in Non Credo?
KV: Ha! Probably pretty chaotic. We argue constantly. Well, I think mostly I’m the one arguing with myself. I prefer to work and write alone. If something comes out of improvisations, then we work on it together more. Otherwise I much prefer doing this stuff on my own, and we only work together when we have to. I think Joe would rather do more things together, but that’s just not my thing.
JB: Sometimes it’s super easy, sometimes it’s a living nightmare! Usually it’s somewhere in between. Like Kira said, we mostly each work on our own, but it’s great how well we complement each other when it’s time to collaborate. Each of us has ideas the other would never come up with. I think we respect and trust each other. If one of us has an unfinished song, the other will go and add something completely unexpected and the music will head off in a totally new direction. That’s how a lot of pleasant surprises happen. Of course there are plenty of arguments, because we’re both stubborn and independent, but we’re always happy with the end result. In the end it’s worth suffering through all the pain.
I’d say we work creatively more like painters, like adding colors to a canvas. We’re strongly influenced by things that have nothing to do with music, and those influences show in the music. Sometimes we think in terms of film too. For every song we try to create a little story, or maybe a short film.
RockLine: Are you involved in any other projects besides Non Credo?
KV: Occasionally I do a solo show or improvise with other people, but unlike Joe I don’t play with lots of different people and I don’t play as often. Joe plays drums with practically everyone in Los Angeles. He’s a total whore.
JB: Thanks, Kira! Yeah, I play in loads of other projects, mostly as a drummer and percussionist. For example, I play with the surf band Double Naught Spy Car, with the avant-bluesmen The Mentones, and with the percussion group The Obliteration Quartet. In Los Angeles I also play a lot of improvised gigs – solo, duo, trio and so on. That gives me the chance to make use of electronic instruments and toys I’ve built, and I can also use percussion samples. The improv scene here is strong, even if the musicians might not be so well known outside the city. Kira and I also have an improv trio together, mostly with guitarist Carey Fosse.
RockLine: Do you make a living from music?
KV: I don’t, and I never have. I probably never will. Definitely not with Non Credo. If I wanted to make a living from music, I’d have to play music I hate and sing lyrics that make me want to throw up. I don’t want that. It would be wonderful to be able to live off music I like, though. Oh well…
JB: Yes. I scrape by financially with music, sort of. But not with Non Credo. That means I have to play other people’s music. I could say I’m a “whore” because I sell myself, but I’m very selective about the music I play. I’m also lucky that I get hired by people who like my music, not just because they need a good drummer. It’s hard to get by, but artistically you feel more fulfilled. Financially it could be better.
RockLine: Did you know about RIO and zeuhl when you started making music? And what about now?
KV: I started singing as a kid. Those two genres didn’t exist back then. When I started playing in bands and clubs, I got to know these styles because other people put me in those boxes.
They’d tell me I sounded like this and my songs were like that. Now we read reviews where critics claim we don’t belong in those categories. That’s the beauty of Non Credo. We don’t belong anywhere. It’s very liberating.
JB: I’ve been aware of RIO and Zeuhl for a long time, even before Non Credo and before The Fibonaccis, my band before Non Credo. These genres have been a huge influence on me. Sometimes they file us under RIO, and sometimes they say we don’t belong there at all. We don’t even think about it. The only good thing is that the term lets you describe music that’s impossible to categorize. If someone asked me what kind of music we play, I’d happily say RIO. But almost nobody would get it.
Whatever they say about us, I think our music has the true “Rock In Opposition” spirit. RIO stands for music against an uncomprehending music industry, and we definitely belong there. But are we really RIO? Who knows? Maybe we’re rock in opposition to RIO!
RockLine: Do you perform live just the two of you?
KV: Right now, yes!
JB: Just the two of us. Lately we mostly play Impropera, with the odd old song here and there. For special shows we’d like to bring in other musicians, especially once we start working new material into our sets.
RockLine: Have you ever wanted to add more members to the band?
KV: Twenty years ago, when we started, there were six members in the band, so four besides us. What a nightmare! Well, that’s not entirely true. We still love the people we worked with. They’re wonderful people, excellent musicians and good friends. But Non Credo is just “Joe and Kira”. We write everything. We decide how everything should be played. We rehearse a ton, and musicians who aren’t invested in the project and don’t get paid much can’t dedicate themselves to the music the way we’d like. Sometimes we think it’d be nice to have a band again, but it’ll probably never happen. We’ve been playing together for twenty years and instinctively know how the other plays. If we add anyone else, things might not flow so smoothly anymore. Still, Joe and I think Bernard Sauser-Hall is an honorary, permanent (though inactive) member of Non Credo. Bernard is the only outside collaborator who helped with the compositions out of improvisations. When Bernard joined, we went from a band of four or five members to a trio. A few years ago he moved back to Switzerland. We’ll always play with Bernard if he’s around and interested.
JB: I’d love to have a small lineup we could play live with, but we won’t be adding anyone as an active member. We already have a hard time making any decision as it is. Maybe that’s exactly what we need… a third person to cast the deciding vote! But really, it’ll always be just the two of us, because this setup works so well.
RockLine: Does having only two members in the band give you more creative freedom?
JB: I think so. Only two people make the decisions, and if you trust that person, it’s easier and there are fewer personal compromises. It’s easier to find the balance. Non Credo started out as a project where both of us would get the chance to do things we couldn’t in a normal band with three or four members. Sometimes a song is the work of just one of us, while the other only chips in here and there. I think that shows a great deal of freedom.
KV: I think freedom isn’t as important as space. On stage we have more room and we don’t crash into anybody. Maybe that’s creative freedom. In that case I’d say “Yes” too.
RockLine: Do you have any gigs planned for the future?
KV: We get offers, but we try to avoid them. We want to record the stuff we’ve started. If we’re playing shows, that means we can’t record. There’s no time for both. Each one needs a different mental headspace. We’ve thought about doing a long-term residency at a small club in Los Angeles. It would be two shows a night, one night a week, for a month. We’d play completely different songs in each show. I’d like to have both an audio and a video recording of those shows. Once everything’s documented, we’ll ask ourselves: “Who the hell is ever going to listen to this?”
